tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1938983304459855111.post1419070236051266112..comments2023-04-02T07:03:21.099-05:00Comments on Principium Unitatis: The Indefectibility of the ChurchBryan Crosshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13269970389157868131noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1938983304459855111.post-18407695420457448492008-11-09T15:34:00.000-06:002008-11-09T15:34:00.000-06:00Bryan,Thank you for the reply. I think I follow y...Bryan,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for the reply. I think I follow your use of "indefectible", which seems to have been my problem. I saw that individual people and particular churches could err and even be destroyed. I also saw that the body cannot be destroyed. Now it seems a little tricky to not lapse into calling the indefectible church invisible (as I know you would not do, and I'm trying to get away from the habit)... But the analogy of individual cells in my body dying is quite helpful here. It seems like we're in the waters of the (visible) Church having an essence distinct from the members which make up its corpus. <BR/><BR/>Peace in Christ,<BR/>TomTom B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08014927666068877364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1938983304459855111.post-64352657427554891282008-11-09T14:28:00.000-06:002008-11-09T14:28:00.000-06:00Dear Tom,I think the last paragraph of my post (wh...Dear Tom,<BR/><BR/>I think the last paragraph of my post (which paragraph is an excerpt from the encyclopedia article) addresses your question. The individual parts, taken individually, of the Body, even [particular] Churches, may be corrupted, fall into apostasy or even be destroyed. As the article says, "The promise is made to the corporate body. Individual Churches may become corrupt in morals, may fall into heresy, may even apostatize." If you think of your own physical body, the analogy would be that any particular cell of your body could become corrupt, and even die, but your body itself could not perish. Indefectibility does not mean that all parts of the Body are free from defect. Indefectibility is a promise to the whole Body, as a whole, and particularly to the visible head of the Body, Peter and his episcopal successors, the Principle of the Apostles, to whom Christ commissioned to "strengthen his brethren" (Luke 22:32)<BR/><BR/>Here's an important qualifier from paragraph 86 of <A HREF="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html" REL="nofollow"><I>Mystici Corporis</I></A>:<BR/><BR/><I>They [who fall into this error] make the Divine Redeemer and the members of the Church coalesce in one physical person, and while they bestow divine attributes on man, they make Christ our Lord subject to error and to human inclination to evil. But Catholic faith and the writings of the holy Fathers reject such false teaching as impious and sacrilegious; and to the mind of the Apostle of the Gentiles it is equally abhorrent, for although he brings Christ and His Mystical Body into a wonderfully intimate union, he nevertheless distinguishes one from the other as Bridegroom from Bride.</I><BR/><BR/>In the peace of Christ,<BR/><BR/>- BryanBryan Crosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13269970389157868131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1938983304459855111.post-32950249991769097292008-11-09T08:43:00.000-06:002008-11-09T08:43:00.000-06:00Dear Bryan,You said, "It is because of this union ...Dear Bryan,<BR/><BR/>You said, "It is because of this union of Christ with the Church [(body and members)] that the Church is indefectible."<BR/><BR/>I think you're right, especially given the Scriptural passages you noted. But may I press you on a point so that I can grasp the claim better?<BR/><BR/>Is it a non sequitur to say that because the head is indefectible, the body must be also? I was reflecting upon 1 Cor 6:19, describing us as living temples of the Holy Spirit. We can defile this "temple" and be re-purified by Christ, our head. In today's reading we heard about the temple proper being corrupted, and Christ purifying it (by driving out the money changers). These bodily impurities did (do) not seem to 'defect' the head, Christ.<BR/><BR/>I was thinking too about our physical bodies, when they get sick with a fever. Such sickness does not corrupt the head, and the sickness is eventually worked out. <BR/><BR/>I think I may not have your meaning of "indefectible" down. If you [simply] mean that the body cannot be destroyed (obliterated), then my point above, even if correct, would be inapt. But do you also mean by the word indefectible that the body is continually perfect and free from defect? If so, I would also be curious how the distinction between the Church's perfection (on faith and morals) and simultaneous indwelling by sinners (the hospital metaphor) relates to your premise about the indefectibility of the body.<BR/><BR/>Peace in Christ,<BR/>TomTom B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08014927666068877364noreply@blogger.com