tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1938983304459855111.post5926792481022909763..comments2023-04-02T07:03:21.099-05:00Comments on Principium Unitatis: Louis Berkhof, Justification and the Lord's PrayerBryan Crosshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13269970389157868131noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1938983304459855111.post-76884888367038703332009-02-19T04:00:00.000-06:002009-02-19T04:00:00.000-06:00Brilliant topic and post.The reason why Reformed P...Brilliant topic and post.<BR/><BR/>The reason why Reformed Protestants believe this is because they are the most consistent of all Protestants in their theology. Since they believe in Penal Substitution, it only logically follows that all future sins are forgiven at the moment of justification.<BR/><BR/>I'm having a Penal Substitution debate right now where I made this very "future sin forgiven" objection in my debate on last months essay.<BR/>http://catholicdefense.googlepages.com/psdebateNickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1938983304459855111.post-26755964075874694932009-01-30T16:26:00.000-06:002009-01-30T16:26:00.000-06:00Ragamuffin,Thanks. I may, if I get a chance, write...Ragamuffin,<BR/><BR/>Thanks. I may, if I get a chance, write a follow-up post that discusses the sort of position you are describing.<BR/><BR/>In the peace of Christ,<BR/><BR/>- BryanBryan Crosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13269970389157868131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1938983304459855111.post-59583823225459415682009-01-30T16:10:00.000-06:002009-01-30T16:10:00.000-06:00Bryan,Great post. I've long said that one of the b...Bryan,<BR/><BR/>Great post. I've long said that one of the biggest differences between Catholics and our separated brethren is the question of whether there will be people in hell who were actually forgiven for some of their sin.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12354061248410724936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1938983304459855111.post-91749584074208626522009-01-30T13:49:00.000-06:002009-01-30T13:49:00.000-06:00I enjoy these kinds of posts because I find myself...I enjoy these kinds of posts because I find myself pondering the same kinds of questions.<BR/><BR/>The way I have heard this described from various Protestants (particularly of the Baptist and Reformed varieties that believe in "once saved, always saved") is that though our sins do not cause us to forfeit our ultimate salvation, they do break fellowship with God. The results of this broken fellowship can be manifested in various ways (though not all at once) such as the torment of a guilty conscience, the loss of a sense of God's presence, the hindering of our prayers being heard and answered, removal of God's blessings or protection to one degree or another, various means of Godly chastisement/discipline, etc. So we ask forgiveness to restore this fellowship with Him. <BR/><BR/>It would be looked upon as similar to what happens perhaps when a child disobeys his or her parents. The parent will be upset and disappointed. They may impose some kind of punishment depending on what it is. There will be feelings of guilt or shame for having disappointed your parents and depending on how old the child is, something of a hindrance in communication and closeness they may have felt before. But the parent doesn't kick the child out of the house or disown them. They don't have to move out into a tent in the backyard until they confess and apologize.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, that's the idea. I've never quite heard it explained the way that Berkhof does.Ragamuffinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16102860882549986216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1938983304459855111.post-88469382142194290132009-01-30T13:37:00.000-06:002009-01-30T13:37:00.000-06:00Hello Jared,Except for news items, I generally (th...Hello Jared,<BR/><BR/>Except for news items, I generally (though there are exceptions) pick blog post topics for one of two reasons. Either I am responding to a question or objection that someone has raised regarding what I (or the Catholic Church) have said regarding how Christians should be unified, or I am seeking to remove what I think is an obstacle to that reunion, and so in that way facilitate reunion. There are three fundamental principles that divide Catholics and Protestants. (I mentioned these at the beginning of one of my recent posts.) In the previous year, my blog posts focused mostly on the issue of authority. I did not write much about justification. Some Protestants are sympathetic to the authority argument, but think that the Catholic Church got justification wrong at Trent. So, it seems to me that in order to reconcile Catholics and Protestants, we can't just talk about authority. We must also talk about the justification issue. It is one of *the* most important doctrines dividing us. I think I quoted John Gerstner somewhere saying that if he discovered today that he is wrong about sola fide, he would be on his knees outside the Vatican tomorrow, asking for forgiveness. If you think the Church has abandoned the gospel, then you cannot in good conscience come back to her. Hence my recent focus on justification.<BR/><BR/>In the peace of Christ,<BR/><BR/>- BryanBryan Crosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13269970389157868131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1938983304459855111.post-33438212304190030202009-01-30T11:57:00.000-06:002009-01-30T11:57:00.000-06:00Bryan, I have been enjoying your recent posts to ...Bryan,<BR/><BR/> I have been enjoying your recent posts to a great degree. I was just curious as to the constant theme of Justification. I'm wondering as to why you have chosen to explore this topic? Is this the fruit of personal study, or is there another occasion? One reason I ask these things is that I am curious as to how, as a blogger, one chooses topics to write on. Are these topics you are exploring the product of research for your Phd? <BR/><BR/>Thanks.<BR/><BR/>JaredJaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04097908838110161624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1938983304459855111.post-43976005056348516702009-01-29T23:40:00.000-06:002009-01-29T23:40:00.000-06:00Hello Andrew,The WCF seems closer to that view tha...Hello Andrew,<BR/><BR/>The WCF seems closer to that view than does Berkhof. The WCF (XI.5) says that justified believers, by their sins "fall under God's fatherly displeasure", and do not have the light of His countenance restored to them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance. That's not temporal punishment, but there's a vague similarity. (I hope to post something about temporal punishment in the near future.) To answer your question, no, I have not encountered that notion among Reformed Christians. <BR/><BR/>In the peace of Christ,<BR/><BR/>- BryanBryan Crosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13269970389157868131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1938983304459855111.post-80867815056818447412009-01-29T23:13:00.000-06:002009-01-29T23:13:00.000-06:00Bryan,Have you encountered the notion, among Refor...Bryan,<BR/><BR/>Have you encountered the notion, among Reformed Christians, that the Lord's Prayer and 1 John 1.9 might be referring to the need for ongoing forgiveness with respect to the <EM>temporal punishment</EM> due to our sins? That sounds like a Catholic kind of distinction but I have heard Evangelicals make use of it in exegeting these passages.<BR/><BR/>In this case, because of initial justification, we no longer need to fear eternal punishment, but we might very well be afraid of God's temporal judgment (whatever form that might take); hence, the ongoing need for confession and reconciliation without resorting to the psychologizing explanation offered by Berkof.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com